LOVE WINS. from Rob Bell on Vimeo.
How would your understanding of Christianity have to change if you didn’t believe in eternal damnation? What if you didn’t have the prospect of eternal conscious punishment to “scare the hell” out of people? Did Jesus come to save us from…Father God?
Twitter exploded on Saturday night over a recent article decrying Rob Bell’s upcoming book entitled, “Love Wins: Heaven, Hell and the Fate of Every Person Who Ever Lived.” Broadcast by tweets from influential theologians/pastors such as John Piper bidding “Farewell, Rob Bell,” the article’s writer is convinced that Bell can no longer claim the title of “Christian” because he suspects Bell of universalism (this decision being made, it seems, simply by viewing the video above and reading the publisher’s summary rather than, you know, reading the book first). Meanwhile, the rest of Twitter collectively scratched its Fail Whale while wondering who in the world #RobBell is and why is he trending?
It sounds so elementary, doesn’t it? This is basic Christian doctrine! Of course, there is hell and that is where bad people or people that do not “accept Jesus into their hearts” go when they die. How is it that people claiming to be Christians are not sure about something as basic and entrenched in our belief system as the doctrine of hell?
But here is the quiet truth: this is a big topic of conversation among many of us – new Christians, seminarians, atheists, long-time faithful and all in between. And it has been for centuries.
Is there really a hell?
Will God truly condemn all of humanity – with the exception of the faithful (or elect, depending on your theology) – to the lake of fire for all eternity? Is Jesus the “good cop” to God’s wrathful “bad cop?” As far as Rob Bell is concerned, we don’t know what he states yet because the book hasn’t been released. (So I’ll leave that for other bloggers/pastors/theologians to rip apart gleefully when the time comes.)
But here’s the thing: I don’t believe in hell. Or at least, not as it is traditionally understood.
This may be as good a time as any to let you know that I am not a universalist though. My heart wants to be – meaning that I really, really want to believe that everyone that ever lived will spend eternity in God’s Kingdom living life as it was meant to be lived. Even though I want to believe that, I can’t justify it scripturally.
I lean towards annihilation or conditional immortality. I believe that we are finite creatures only given eternal life through the breath of God, meaning eternal life is only ours as it is given to us. At the final judgment, those in Christ will remain in Him and in his life eternally. Those who are not in Christ will simply cease to exist—forever and eternally apart from God, forever and irrevocably amiss from their created purpose. The final total end of a life is eternal punishment itself – spirit, soul, mind and body, as in keeping with biblical beliefs about whole personhood. So yes, because I am a follower of Christ, I am “going to heaven” as are those that are also disciples of the man from Galilee. But those that are not simply do not live eternally in either heaven or “hell.” It is a tragedy that there must be such an end—a tragedy that not all will receive God’s gift of eternal life.
This probably isn’t the space for me to get into all of the painstaking research and reading, prayer and spiritual wrestling that has occurred in our home as we challenged our traditional understanding of hell – truly with the heart to learn – and emerged from the discussion on the other side of orthodoxy. It’s kind of a scary place, to be honest. I am very aware of the fact that I could be wrong on this one (after all, hundreds of years of church history tell me so) so my self-identification with annihilation is held loosely in my hand. And I still have a lot of questions unanswered.
Here is the thing though. The reaction of most people to my doubts about hell isn’t immediate condemnation (unlike what Rob Bell is experiencing).
Most people immediately ask me with disbelief: “But then, what is the point?”
Meaning, why would one bother being a Christian if it wasn’t to escape hell?
Isn’t that the whole reason why we use the word “saved” to begin with? Isn’t that why we go to Sunday School, why we marched up the aisle to sign the commitment card, why we give money and sacrifice and don’t drink/swear/have sex outside of marriage and so on? As the inimitable (and fictional) Rachel Lynde once wrote about a minister, “…And he says he doesn’t believe all the heathen will be eternally lost. The idea! If they won’t all the money we’ve been giving to Foreign Missions will be clean wasted, that’s what!”
Obviously, given my beliefs about annihilation, I’ve had to truly grapple with these questions. What is the point? And in a way, the absence of hell has freed me, giving me the eyes to see life in Christ as a truly rich eternal one. I can more clearly see the heart of God towards his children as expressed in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit as He invites my own soul and the lives of those around me into the fullness and abundance of life in Christ. There is no motivation of fear in my decision to follow God. It is entirely motivated by His love and the invitation that He has given me to enter into relationship and be a part of his Kingdom come to the earth now and even for eternity – one of wholeness, justice, mercy, healing, love, peace, joy, gentleness and faithfulness etc. And part of that means making a way for God’s Kingdom here, showing how the world, according to God’s purposes would work, engaged in the holy work of restoration with a true Father-heart.
The point is not hell – its absence or reality – but life, here, now and for eternity, in Christ.
So just indulge me, friend.
What if your “Get Out of Hell Card” and escape from Dante’s Inferno were not a factor in following God?
Is your choice to love and know God based on your belief that if you didn’t, you would suffer horribly for all eternity?
Is life in Christ to the glory of God, in fact, the point?
Or this one: Would you bother to tell people about Jesus and the richness of life in Christ without the prospect of hell?
What if every story your life told about life in God (spoken and unspoken) had to communicate what you are saved to as opposed to saved from?
{ 177 comments… read them below or add one }
Interesting thoughts. I can’t remember who said it but it also cuts to an issue of why do we want to go to heaven. “If you could go to heaven, and have no pain, no suffering, never thirst or be tired, live a life of complete joy but Jesus wasn’t there, would you still want to go?”
I believe there is hell but I sometimes think we also forget that heaven is dwelling forever in the full presence of God. Being with the God we love and have a relationship with.
Exactly, Melissa. Most of us think more about what we are escaping in the afterlife than about what we are embracing in the person of Jesus. Thanks for your comment. So heaven – or the kingdom of God – starts now, living in the reality of his love.
I also have come to the realisation that Hell is eternal separation from God. God is love and goodness, but he is also just. He tells us in His word he sets before us life and death (and then pleads we chose life). If we chose not to heed Him, and choose the way of death, then God must give us the consequence. He cannot, and will not go back on His Word. God’s ways are also not our ways. We will not know the way He will judge until, well, Judgement. Who knows what element grace will play.
If I believe in an ultimate good, I must believe in an ultimate evil. If I believe in heaven, I must believe in hell. The bible speaks of the fires of hell and calls it the place that destroys the soul. Revelation in particular is very clear on this. If there is no hell or eternal damnation, the Christ came and died for nothing.
I’m right there with you, Jen. In fact, I just wrote about this today. If we don’t truly believe that we are saved from something, then why did Jesus have to come die on the cross? That wasn’t easy for Him; scripture says His soul was grieved and He prayed that God would find another way. Ultimately, there is a price for sin and someone has to pay it.
I think that’s where I can get a bit overwhelmed! Almost like we’ve just tipped over a domino game – this leads to this which leads to that and so on. Becaus you’re right – the Cross and our views on what actually happened there/the purpose of Jesus’ death is tied very closely to our beliefs about eschatology. There is a price for sin and he did pay it. It’s just that I don’t think that the price is eternal conscious punishment as much as it is the total destruction of a life. Once it’s done, it’s done (much like redemption). Thanks for your comment, Melissa – I always appreciate your perspective.
I’d never actually heard that theory before, and I went to bible college. Haha! So, thank you Sarah for introducing me to another idea and causing me to dig deeper into what I believe and why I believe it. I have the tendency to just take what I’ve grown up with at face value. I find after researching much of it that I still ultimately believe the same way, but it’s always better to have an answer as to why I believe it. And really, it’s all conjuncture anyway, right? Thank you for your post!
I don’t disagree with your entire first paragraph at all, Jen. I suppose I simply look at consequences and judgement through a different lens than eternal conscious punishment. And yes, I do believe in ultimate evil and the devil. And even your last paragraph – if read through the lens of annihilation – could very well support my position as yours. “Destroys the soul,” for instance. And you are right – Revelation is very clear on this. I just believe it’s clear in a different way than what we’ve been taught.
But i completely disagree that if there is no hell or damnation that Christ died for nothing. I think that reduces Christ’s life and death and resurrection to one theological position and that’s simply not true.
Thank you for such a thoughtful comment.
Thanks Sarah … great info to ponder.
I received life-changing injuries in an accident – living through the initial trauma and pain and then adjusting to life with pain and limitations has made me question the normal view of hell. I wonder how a God who is love could torment people he’s created in his image for all of eternity. I don’t even want my worse enemy to have to go through what I did/do.
So I’ve studied the subject of hell somewhat and want to do so more. I’ve tried to look at it without the many filters, traditions and interpretations that I’ve read/believed/heard over the years. I’m left with some unanswered questions about it, so thanks for this information to add to my processing.
I struggle with how a God of love could torment people through all eternity too…it’s definitely sent me searching!
I did too. And it was one of those questions that I’d stuff down with the party lines about justice and holiness but soon they simply rang too hollow and they weren’t intellectually or spiritually satisfying. That was a big motivator for our search. It seemed…absurd and incongruous but I didn’t know if I just didn’t understand it (i.e. “his ways are higher than our ways”) or if I simply was believing the wrong thing about the character and nature of God.
I don’t think it has anything to do with whether or not God loves us. As a parent, I discipline my child to correct their bad behavior. I do not enjoy it. I would rather just give them presents and candy and let them play all day long. I also don’t want to discipline myself. God loves us, but He is also just. I read a quote from Oswald Chambers on this yesterday. Here’s the link, because it’s a long one: http://www.myutmost.org/11/1120.html — basically he says that in order for God to forgive sin and remain holy, He needed the death of Jesus on the cross. He can’t just forgive us, because it would contradict His nature if He did.
It sucks that bad things happen, I’m sorry you had such a tragic experience. But, God is not responsible for the bad things that happen, and He desires that all are saved. People choose hell.
And I just realized that sounds harsh. I don’t know how to change it. I guess my point is that I have to believe that God is good, regardless of the experiences I go through and the pain I see in others. If He’s not, what else is there?
I know your heart, Melissa, and I know it’s not harsh (although, yes, the “it sucks” bit does sound a bit harsh!) I don’t disagree with you – God is NOT responsible for the bad things and desires all to be saved. And people do choose what you refer to as “hell.” I’m just not sure that hell is what you think it is. I am not purporting a fuzzy teddy-bear version of an indulgent God that simply lets justice and holiness go – rather this is justice. And discipline is just as much a part of life as are consequences. That is, as you said, scriptural.
Thanks, Janet. I remember your story and you are right. I imagine that anyone that has walked through a bit of your suffering (or the suffering of many of our brothers and sisters around the world) would say the same thing. I will say that that was the hardest part of starting our investigation into the topic: identifying what lens we were looking at the issue through and trying to remove our presuppositions or our “this is what I’ve always been taught” way of thinking, to truly go back to the Old Testament understanding of the afterlife and whole personhood, as opposed to a Platonic separation, and let that inform the New Testament teachings on the subject instead of the other way around. Thanks for your comment!
wow. i admire your boldness. i live in the bible belt sort of in the country and goodness….you cannot NOT believe in hell around here. it’s unheard of and you will be crushed for it. my husband and i began doing research (him mostly at first) about our belief system. and girl…a lot of it crumbled (or deconstructed). i had a conversation with my mom one night that led her to ask me “so you don’t believe there is a hell????” and i said maybe not. and she said “well then what’s the point of following jesus??” yikes. my heart broke a little because we are so missing the point. we are missing this life abundant that god desires for us because we are sooooo concerned for the afterlife that we are totally uncertain of.
thanks for this post nish! very encouraging.
we pre-ordered our books a while back and are excited to dive in:)))
Boldness….foolishness….such a fine line.
(And yes, I do love emoticons! I’m so late 90s!) I am excited to read the book, too but I’m not too excited about the blog-storm that will likely erupt.
and i meant to say thanks sarah!
sarah,
you’re a real risk taker, you are. and i thought saying i didn’t think christian bookstores are real was bold!
~zena
Well, that is bold, too, I know!
hmmmm…I’m going to have to disagree here. The problem being Jesus Christ. Because what I’m hearing from you is the Darling of Heaven, God’s only Son, came to this Earth, lived, and died an excrutiating death – the likes of which most of us will never know all so we wouldn’t “cease to exist.”
People are pretty quick to point out that Bell’s book is being judged by it’s cover. Well, of course it is. That’s how books are sold, right? I don’t care whether he is or isn’t a universalist. Because what is happening right now is in an effort to market his book, he has swung wide the door for a whole lot of watered down, or Book of Me theology (you know, where we take parts of the Bible, a little wisdom from folks like Ben Franklin, and our own personal -and usually a little selfish- thoughts and add a chapter to the Bible) warm fuzzy stuff to apologize for the true grace we’ve been given. The world doesn’t need a predigested gospel. Thank you for sharing your thoughts, though. Sometimes it takes hearing a different perspective to help us realize what we truly believe.
Hi Julie:
You’re right – I imagine that his publishers are writing nice thank you notes to John Piper and Justin Taylor for the Internet-storm they’ve made as pre-orders soar! That is how books are sold. And this probably worked out well for sales.
I’m glad that you felt more validated in your beliefs by thinking through the issue. I simply don’t think that “ceasing to exist” is the sole issue of annihilation though. it’s being separate from God. It’s the complete absence of life and every good gift from God. It’s a tragedy to never be united to Christ and to never realise your true creational purpose. That is not “nothing” to die for.
Thanks for your thoughtful response, Julie. I do appreciate it.
Oh, how I love that you quoted Mrs. Rachel Lynde, PEI theologian!
We have to share our stories of what we are saved from and what we are save to. That is the cross and the resurrection. That is the fullness of the gospel.
Much to think about here. Beautifully written.
I may have broken new ground with that one. Anne of the Island references in an article about hell! Ha!
You are right on If i had a chance to go back and edit it, I would change that last to add the word “only.” As in, it’s not ONLY what we are saved from (because even in my beliefs about conditional immortality and annihilation we are still saved “from” something) but also what we are saved to. Live and learn!
Thank you for this. I hope you keep writing about this topic as it is one that I’ve wrestled with…and I’m shocked at the responses. I take Scripture seriously and as I pray and seek the Holy Spirit, any conclusions that might perhaps variate from traditional evangelical views are treated as absolute heresy and you wouldn’t believe some of the things I and my friends have experienced from the Body of Christ.
No matter what, let’s keep loving each other.
I agree, Rain. I remember Rachel Held Evans writing an article about that very thing (here is the link http://rachelheldevans.com/loving-god-mind-al-mohler) basically saying that if we want people to read and study the Bible and to love God also with their minds, then we have to be okay when they reach different conclusions than we do.
What the recent discussion has made me wonder is if we haven’t elevated the need to believe in hell over the need to believe in Jesus. If not believing in hell keeps you from being a Christian rather than your belief in Jesus, then doesn’t it follow that we’re making hell more important than Christ?
I will fully admit that this isn’t something that I’ve spent ANY time studying, but it’s definitely an issue that I look forward to spending more time delving into. Thank you for your beautiful post here. I am certainly deeply in favor of the idea of people turning TO my Jesus than away FROM hell.
That is a good question…”are we making hell more important?” I don’t think that anyone would say that but sometimes that way we talk about it (preach it, teach it, live it) says something different or carries that implicit message. Thanks, Alise, as always, for your thoughts.
This is one of my big questions. I think there is plenty of amazing reasons to follow God without ever including Hell in the equation. The way I see it Jesus came to demonstrate love. He was killed because he showed that love and legalists were so angry about him challengeing their perfectionism that they killed him, and Jesus was willing to go all the way to death to demonstrate his love. I don’t think His death was an attempt to appease an angry father god.
If God is the kind of being that would send people to eternal suffering for not getting it exactly right, I wouldn’t want to spend enternity with that perfectionistic manipulative god anyways. And I certainly can’t evangelize about that god. How can we call “god murdered his son so that you could have the chance to be part of a special crowd that gets out of this horrible place that god made and decided to send all people” anything close to “Good News”?
I’ve heard it posed that way, too, Young mom. “Who could love a torturer?” And it doesn’t sound like good news when you put that way – not if you have an ounce of compassion or empathy.
The first two commenters took the wind out of my sails, so I’ll just reiterate: Hell is the absence of God. I mean, look around the world. Everything beautiful in this world, everything that makes it worth living, is from God: love, cuddles, creation, skies and outdoors and all the things that make our hearts skip beats. To be separated from everything that is God? Hell!
But I do think there’s something to be said for the idea that living for God out of fear of Hell is a pretty poor version of Christianity. I don’t think much about Hell; I’m trying to learn to live so that I belong in God’s eternal family. I don’t believe I have a guarantee that I’m going to Heaven just because I say I believe in God. Actions speak louder than words, and God’s the editor of the final markup, not me.
Thanks, Kathleen (always appreciate your thoughtful comments!) – separation from God is HELL. That is just it. It’s like we’re not satisfied with that though – we want people to burn for all eternity. I do think it’s a tragedy and it’s “hell” for that very reason.
Escaping hell has never been part of my love for or life with the Lord. Gaining Heaven isn’t incentive, either, though I often look forward to eternity. Trusting that God is good just has to cover those bits, too. I’m in it for the relationship and just to be close enough to my Lord to see the show and be changed by it!
Exactly, Victoria. Thank you – it’s a good balance, I think.
I wish I could say emphatically there isn’t a hell for the damned, but I struggle with the passages about the lake of fire, the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, Christ’s own teaching about hell and the afterlife. The thought of hell terrifies me, and I think too often we try to scare people into heaven. I think of the words of Paul when he said “I preach Christ.” Can the modern the church really say we preach Christ when our rhetoric and sermonizing focuses so much on hell? Are we preaching more about hell than Christ? We are not focusing on Christ, his eternal goodness and love, if we are more focused on scaring people into a relationship. Whether we believe in hell or not, the focus is Christ.
I used to struggle with the same passages because I looked at them through the lens of literalism with the translations. Once I shifted my perspective to the Old Testament lens (whole personhood, Jewish teachings on the afterlife etc. instead of the Platonic lens), those verses actually served to validate annihilation and conditional immortality for me. So it’s always a rather awkward discussion when those are the verses fired across the bow at me andall i can say is “yes! exactly! those ones prove what I’m trying to say!” (I’ll try to write about that later today or tomorrow.)
And you’re exactly right – no matter what we believe, actual literal “sinners in the hands of an angry God” or not – we preach Christ.
thanks, as always, Sarah.
About a year and a half ago I realized that I didn’t love God, I was just afraid of him. Honestly, there has been nothing lovable about the God I have known. (I beat my son so I wouldn’t beat you? No thanks).
I’m in the middle of wrestling with who God is, but I know that I can’t love anyone if the phrase “or else” is part of the relationship.
My heart reaches out for you, KatR. I think that those are legitimate questions and concerns. I just pray you don’t stop there. That is not the God that I know now.
I completely understand the spirit of this post, though I do not agree at all with the belief of annihilation (which I’ll get back to momentarily).
To answer your questions specifically, I think that, of course, now knowing God and Jesus in the intimate way that I do I would totally want to serve Him regardless if there was a hell or not. But that’s just it. I’m already a believer; I know what it’s REALLY about. I have learned over my years of being saved what He truly did for me, how I am to worship Him, why it no longer is “just” about what he saved me from, but that I am to bring him glory, worship him, etc. Just like any human relationship in which I may get to know a person because I have to (a project, a small group), but a genuine affection and love may grow cultivated by getting to know that person in an intimate way and learning about them.
Had you asked me that question pre-salvation, there’s no way I would have given up my worldly ways. As you asked, for what? What’s the point? That is the problem I encounter when evangelizing on the streets to people who do not believe. They want to live their lives as they want, party hard, and do not care about any consequence at all. “Oh, I get to live my life and then cease to exist when I’m dead? Great!” Um, no.
Now, I do not believe in the methodology of scaring people or putting fear into them to get them to accept Christ. That would not even be true salvation to me anyway. But to understand the wrath that God will put on sinners who fail to accept what Jesus Christ did on the cross for them is so vital to basic Christian doctrine. I am so sad that this person (Rob Bell) has caused this topic to become so widely out there in such a way that it is going to diminish that Hell is very, very real and why Christ needed to come so we could be saved from it.
As for your post, I do not know you personally and I do see your heart, but I have yet to read a post from a blogger (personally, not saying it has not been done) who is on the side of hell may not be real use any scriptural evidence to support the argument. You stated this probably was not the place to get into all the research, prayer, etc. you have done that led you to this decision, but yes it is! I am assuming many believers and perhaps non-believers will find posts such as these and think–”Well, she’s a Christian. She must be a good person. She says it’s okay, so I’ll believe it as well.” And feel free and clear to believe this idea without ever knowing what God’s word says about it. Bloggers should be held accountable as teachers–you are giving a view about God and not supporting it with what HE says.
So, I understand that someone just spewing off scripture does not necessarily mean they are correct. But an encouragement to readers to search the scriptures for themselves is needed. I value the insights of those I disagree with more if they can at least show me why they believe the way they do.
Finally, and this is crazy, but this topic is making me crazy, here is a paper my husband wrote that I support after hearing a pastor of ours make a statement of believing what you do many years ago. (We left the church over it.) As an evangelist, my husband was crushed when his own pastor was expressing the same belief as the cults my husband evangelizes to. Normally, I would have approached you in private, but I hope people will read over my comment and not believe me or my husband–but be encouraged to adequately form their own opinion based on what the scriptures say.
Much love in Christ to you.
Good grief. Who reads a comment this long?!
By the way – great post, Sarah!
We’re working together to condense it
wow – that’s quite a condensed version. well done! (now i just look like a jerk – sorry, Lis.)
oh Jamie the VWM how i love you on your blog and in the comments here
Right on, Jamie. TL;DR. Maybe as a separate blog post this would work?
Thanks for your comment, Lis. And I also appreciate the paper that you sent over (after the edit) for me to read. I look forward to reading it.
Sarah, you shared and interesting point of view that I know will change based on how you say you love Jesus. I believe all Christians are students of the Gospel, and everynow and then our inner theologian peaks it head and share our thoughts on God’s word. However we must be very careful not to stray from His written and inerrant Word. Lis summed it up the best. If we are going to stand firm on a belief that is rooted in the Bible, at least use scripture to show why. It will cause us to reconsider our position. However when you share just an opinion, which is your right, what you are doing is sharing a flawed opinion based off of a flawless doctrine. The bible states ” being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;” (Php 1:6) I believe you have a ministry just sitting in you waiting to get out, but you have to work out the kinks first. Your post will be one of many ideas that may seem contrary to what we read, but it just shows your love and desire for an unadulterated truth. God bless you, keep the faith, and Lis, very good response.
It is amazing to me that it comes as a shock to most evangelicals that so many of us are thinking this way and asking these questions. I’m still not sure exactly where I land – annihilationism, universalism, etc. 50 years from now I might not know. And that’s fine. Because like you said, the point is living FOR God, imitating Christ, loving others. Thank you for writing honestly.
Thanks, David. These things aren’t always “hand in hand” either – just because one believes in annihilation doesn’t make them a universalist and so on. I appreciated a recent article by Glenn Packiam with some easy-to-digest understandings of the terminology, if you’d like to check it out. http://glennpackiam.typepad.com/my_weblog/2011/02/before-you-dismiss-rob-bell-lets-learn-some-terminology.html
Yeah, I’m pretty familiar with the terminology and the different positions, I just don’t know what I actually believe on this. I used to be a hardcore Calvinist, led ministries in a reformed church, etc, and then the bottom fell out of my faith and it’s taken several years for me to reconstruct it, this time much more openly.
Thanks, David. I think part of it is that we knee-jerk to the word “universalism” and think that if one doesn’t believe in eternal conscious punishment that one is a universalist. That isn’t true. I appreciated Glenn Packiam’s recent article with easy-to-digest vocab on these things. Here’s the link if you want. http://glennpackiam.typepad.com/my_weblog/2011/02/before-you-dismiss-rob-bell-lets-learn-some-terminology.html Always appreciate your perspective!
Thanks for having the courage to write that, Sarah. I’m just glad the church is discussing this topic. Some who are older and possibly wiser have told me that it’ll end up exactly where it did when this same discussion happened when they were young — some in the liberal camp, some in the fundy camp, and the rest of everyone just trying to figure it out. I hope he’s wrong about that and that the conversation can evolve beyond choosing sides.
Sadly, April, your older-wiser-friend is probably right. Picking sides is a worldly thing that has become, unfortunately, a characteristic of most Christians; the kingdom thing is to set another place at the table and be a family. I think that’s part of the reason why I appreciate the tone of the discussion here – respectful, inclusive etc. Even those that disagree can still love and fellowship together!
Thoroughly enjoyed your candidness and bravery! In our home and in ministry, we strive to teach that fire insurance is not what we are called to embrace. Kudos for expressing it so well. However, I still believe in a literal lake of fire called hell. Fire insurance is simply a perk to following hard after God. Just sayin’.
Yay! Someone else likes emoticons!
Thanks for your comment, Deborah. I appreciate that even though we disagree, that you get “my point.”
if christians can say “what is the point?” to a theology that doesn’t include almost everyone going to hell then WE have missed the point of the gospel. (a good book that touches on some of these ideas is Adventures in Missing the Point.)
salvation in scripture is never a hedge your bets, turn or burn sort of thing. Jesus’ promise of life to the full begins now–the living out of our God-created purposes, expanding the Kingdom on earth as it is in heaven. we are made for more than survival or pleasure (or rule-following or singing in a holy choir in heaven.)
\i can’t say i agree with you on all of this, sarah, but you are right that this conversation is less about the reality of hell or exclusivity of heaven than our theology of salvation and the kind of life Jesus intends for his people.
I loved that book, too, Suzannah!
recommending a mclaren book in a conversation about rob bell is akin to pinning on that scarlet H for heretic, huh? ah, well.
i loved it’s subtitle, too: How The Culture-Controlled Church Neutered The Gospel. we really are missing the forest for the trees on much of this.
i appreciate your boldness in asking these questions.
Sarah – Thank you for this. One of my favorite things about this site is that the writers approach each entry with such humility. And when I visit, I know I’m not going to get a big scoop of evangelical, conservative, American, “I’ve got it all figured out” theology thrown at me. (I guess I probably wouldn’t visit if that were the case.
Anyway, it’s refreshing. This whole hell thing is something I’ve really struggled with over the years, especially because I have so many friends who aren’t “believers.” I even took a class on eschatology, but it just left me with more questions. This is one of the big ones that I’ve had to let go of and try to find some peace in the uncertainty. I just trust in our amazingly wonderful and wise Father that He has it all figured out. Like you and many of your readers have commented, whether or not there is a hell, the radical love of Jesus is here for us now, and that’s what I want those people around me who don’t know Jesus to experience. I have hope that for those people who don’t accept the love of Jesus here on this earth – no matter how they have lived their lives – the moment they take their final breath and see Jesus’ face, they will be so overcome with his beauty and love that they will fall on their knees in front of the Savior. And hell or annhilation or whatever will only be reserved for those who still refuse to choose him – and when face to face with Jesus, how many people could really say no? I recently watched my grandfather pass away, and as his spirit left his body, I was so humbly reminded of the mystery in all of this and how there’s so much our little earthly minds can’t even begin to understand. Perhaps the hell question is one of those …
This is a beautifully written comment, Trish – it is a humble and gracious response. Thank you for sharing your heart with us.
Have you read anything my George McDonald, the 19th century writer? He had some interesting thoughts on Hell, ending with everyone being eventually reconciled to God. I disagree with him, and you — but the question you asked at the end of this post is so important I wish more of us would focus on that. What have we been saved to? to a relationship with the creator of the universe, with our savior; to a life free from the power of sin and darkness; to life eternal and so much greater and fuller than we know now! Those of us who hold the orthodox understanding of Hell would do well to focus on your question and the answers throughout scripture. We have been saved to so much, yet we end up just thinking about what we’ve been saved from.
I have read a few MacDonald books but to be honest, it was so long ago that I’m not sure I could tell you much about them! I should probably re-read!
And as I said to another commenter, if I could go back and rewrite my last line I would add the word “only” to it. Because I do believe we have been saved FROM destruction and separation from God. But the “TO” part is just as important, regardless whether one believes in a literal eternal conscious punishment, as you do, or not. Thanks for understanding what I was *trying* to say. I appreciate it.
As always, I walk away reading this blog with things to ponder.
A friend of mine from college recently converted to Orthodox Christianity and he sent me the following link on hell which I found interesting and has me thinking.
http://www.orthodox-christianity.com
Heaven & Hell in the Afterlife.
Now you have me thinking too
Well, that’s a good thing, right? I have been wanting to delve into orthodox Christianity on this issue for a while now and simply haven’t. I’ve stayed firmly in the west (where there are actually a lot of people that think the same way) in most of my research but there is a lot of richness in that tradition on this subject.
Yes, Sarah! God’s will be done on earth, as it is in heaven. The absence of that is hell, not a fiery pit of condemnation.
Yes, exactly. And that is hell, indeed.
Christians need to get a little more comfortable asking themselves some “what if” questions. I like how you presented it here, since it’s not something you’re cramming down our throats. You’re just asking us to try it on for size.
In my own theology hell as such has taken on a back seat to the extent that I think there are lots of people, even Christians, living in a kind of hell right now to a certain degree. God wants us to live with him NOW. So whatever side of death you’re on, the goal remains the same: be with God. There are clear consequences in the Bible for rejecting God. That’s something we can’t escape.
However, I don’t see how we can stake our unity on what those consequences look like after death, so long as we can agree that rejecting God has consequences. The Bible uses a lot of imagery that we’re really awesome at missing (a la our reading of books like Revelation as literal accounts and not apocalyptic literature). So when it comes to any mentions of fire, Gehenna or whatever, I think we need to proceed with caution and humility. Jesus said very little about hell for a good reason. He wanted us to focus on the details of the Gospel and to accept it.
Hell could be any number of things. Last I checked, no one has been there and traveled back to tell us about it, though many have claimed they’ve done it…
Annihilation? Conscious eternal torment? We don’t know for certain. I don’t get what all of the kerfuffle is about.
Thanks for creating space for this conversation Sarah.
I don’t have anything to say other than that I LOVE the word kerfuffle.
Thanks. I was hoping to choose something lighter than “a struggle to determine the fate of Christianity.”
Good call.
Exactly Ed. We do agree that rejecting God has consequences. It’s that we disagree on what those consequences actually are. And I particularly appreciate your response since you are one of the few real theologians!
posts like this are why I read A Deeper Story. Although I think that just raising the question is important, I’m also very interested in doing some research of my own and would appreciate hearing more about your study.
I’m not a theologian by a long shot but I’ll do my best. Since there are a few others that have also asked how in the world I got here, I’ll try to write today or tomorrow on my own blog (www.emergingmummy.com) about our process and research on the topic to get people started. It likely won’t be fully satisfying for everyone but it’ll be a place to start anyway.
Sarah, I tried to post this over at your blog, but it wouldn’t let me, so I came over here. I copied and pasted my comment from there to here and just realized I didn’t copy the beginning of my comment.
So let me add, that several years ago your current concept of hell would have been my idea of Heaven. My understanding of Heaven up to that point of my life completely freaked me out. So the idea of death being the end, sounded like a great even comforting idea to me. Thankfully I read Randy Alcorn’s book “Heaven” which completely changed my understanding of both Heaven and life on earth. I suppose now I should work on gaining a solid knowledge and understanding of hell.
Yes, I remember that! I read it after you recommended it, too. And yes, it has completely changed how you view Heaven and the Kingdom life (Dallas Willard’s “The Divine Conspiracy” also did that for me about life as a disciple here and now).
I do think this post gets at the heart of the matter – which is not Scriptural prooftexting but an honest question: why are we here?
Hell might be true, but Hell as a scare tactic pollutes Christ.
wow. this blew my mind: i hadn’t even thought of it this way before. thank you sarah. the other night trent and i were watching ‘clash of the titans’ and we realized, a lot of our ‘theology’ is based on greek mythology, and we wondered, isn’t it time we separated the two? and realized what is actually biblical, and what isn’t? which makes me wonder if the traditional concept of hell is based on greek mythology as well… i do wonder, though, about passages like the one where the rich man is sitting in heaven, able to see the poor man across the way in heaven, the one he hadn’t even fed scraps to? and then there’s the one where it talks about weeping and gnashing of teeth… but you know, when it comes down to it, even if damnation is a place, or it isn’t, it involves the complete absence of God, and that, that is hell.
em, one thing to think about is our theology is not based on greek mythology, but greek mythology is based on Truth… which is what our theology is.
here’s a link to some info on the comparisons… http://www.answersingenesis.org/tj/v17/i3/athena.asp
E- Have you read Pagan Christianity? Really interesting stuff!
that sounds very cool. thank you! i’ll look into it.
Yes, I was going to say the same thing!
Yes, that is a very good one, you’re right, e.
Thanks, Emily. There is a lot of our understanding of hell that is informed more by our secular influences (Plato, Dante etc.) than Scripture. and those same passages that you mention – the rich man, the weeping and gnashing of teeth – are the same ones I go to to justify my position on this. I’m going to try to put something together today or tomorrow to share why but I think that the problem is that we look at the New Tesatment and all scriptures about hell through the lens of our teachings or literalism or ways of thinkings instead of looking at it through the lens of the Old Testament and Jewish teachings particularly around biblical whole personhood and letting that understanding inform how we read the teachings of Jesus, Paul etc. on hell and the afterlife. Because I read those same scriptures and think it says something totally different now – it’s like EVERYTHING makes sense and it brings unity to the character of God in all scripture. And thanks for posting it on your FB wall, too – I just spotted that this morning and I really appreciated the conversation that arose there. Love you!
thank you for helping me to understand, dear friend.
Thanks. This post gets to the heart of one of the underlying beliefs of those who insist on a specific vision of hell: that life in the kingdom is not actually all that GOOD, it’s just better than burning forever.
Jesus, on the other hand, presents life in the kingdom under his tutelage as the greatest opportunity people will ever get. How wonderful it is to be able to forgive your enemies and bless those who curse you! he seems to say. How wonderful for those who learn how to get rid of anger and become compassionate instead! How glorious it is to learn how to tell the truth in love! What a stunningly beautiful way of life to learn to be consistently kind and gentle with others!
It’s like we don’t even believe that life with Jesus is a good life.
Again, thanks.
That sentence of yours, Ben, that “life in the kingdom is not actually all that GOOD, it’s just better than burning forever” is exactly my point. (Thanks for saying it much more succinctly!)
and thank YOU for saying it much more “elaboratively!”
Well done Sarah. I think the emotion this topic tends to bring up in Evangelical circles says more about our post-Christendom insecurities than it does about anything else. You’ve written this in a way that illumines that nicely.
Thanks, Jason. I tend to agree with you. In a way, we’ve come to believe that any discussion is an attack. I’m not sure if it’s a chicken-or-the-egg thing but the current culture of antagonism, defensiveness and knee-jerk denunciations isn’t limited ot Christians but is seen in the political spectrum. And it is insecurity, you’re right. With the rise of the apologetics movement, we think we have to have a black-and-white answer for EVERYTHING and therefore everyone else is very, very wrong.
My husband and I have talked long about this, though I sense that you’ve studied it in great depth than we have, so far.
I struggle with the idea that people’s eternal destiny is binary — either heaven or hell. I desperately want a third category. I can be ok with hell as a place of punishment for people who have outright rejected God, lived only for themselves, and mistreated people to the point of torture and death. Taking the life of someone who is made in the image of God is no small thing. Hurting a child is no small thing.
But many people never hear about Jesus, and many are honestly searching. They are not outright rejecting God. I cannot embrace the idea that God would condemn those people to eternal suffering.
I wonder if this is part of why Catholicism teaches about Purgatory? I need to learn more about it, but it’s very appealing as a third option with the weight of centuries of teaching behind it.
The Roman Catholic doctrine of purgatory is that purgatory is a temporary option, a place where souls are cleaned of their remaining sins before they enter heaven. Purgatory is for the saved, so it is not a “third option” or an alternative to hell. Of course purgatory has no Biblical support.
On Hell I just say, “Trust in the Lord, and lean not on your own understanding.” Jesus believes in it, so I trust what he said, and am spurred on to sharing the Gospel more.
Thank you for correcting my misunderstanding of what purgatory really is. I should not have written about it without better understanding it.
Corinthians talks about “a time of purification” which is what the Catholic church teaches that Purgatory is, and I believe there is other biblical reference as well. However, the above commentor is correct in saying that Purgatory is for people who have been baptized but not really lived fully for Christ, so it’s not nessacarily a third option. The idea is that actions done on earth have consequences, whether here on earth or in a time of purification (purgatory) after death. It makes sense when thinking about christians who have caused major harm to others and yet still claim Christ’s promises. They still have the promise of salvation, but they don’t get off scott free just because they’ve said “the magic words” which is the approach so many evengelical’s take. So the Catholic church teaches that there are still consequences for our actions even as christians.
Oh, Joy I feel the same way. I know there isn’t Biblical support for a third option, but I *want* one.
It just doesn’t seem fair…
I don’t know much about the topic but I do know that Eastern Orthodoxy does deal in more nuance about these topics. I’m interested to learn more about that. And you’re right – there is justice to this. It’s just that justice may look different than “eternal conscious punishment” in my opinion.
@joy re: Catholicism and Purgatory. As a Catholic, obviously, I believe in hell. Before I converted I also questioned hell and considered the idea that Sarah wrote about, but at the end of the day I couldn’t get past all the times Jesus talked about hell in the Bible.
Here is a summary of what we believe about Purgatory:
Catholics believe that Purgatory is a step before Heaven where believers are cleaned up for the “wedding banquet” of the Lord in Heaven. Not all believers have to go through Purgatory (some go straight to Heaven) but all people in Purgatory eventually make it to Heaven. They are the elect.
According to the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
All who die in God’s grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven. (Catechism 1030)
Catholics believe that some people go straight to Heaven, which is also what Evangelicals believe. It would be very cool to go straight to Heaven. Let’s pray for each other for that. The Church believes that Purgatory is a place to clean up the effects of “Venial Sin” (not Mortal Sin which if un-repented, leads to eternal punishment – hell). If we were to put it in Evangelical terms, Purgatory would be where the backslider would get cleaned up before joining the wedding banquet of the Lord – so he wouldn’t be thrown out (Mat 22:12). For nothing unclean can enter the presence of God in heaven (Rev. 21:27).
People who rebelliously refuse to believe that Jesus is Lord and who do not yield to Him don’t go to Purgatory. They go to hell.
The entire article can be referenced here: http://www.davidmacd.com/catholic/purgatory.htm This is just for information and to answer your question about Catholicism and Purgatory, not to change anyone’s mind.
Thank you for the clarification and for the link, Monique. And I apologize – I should not have said anything about Purgatory when I didn’t know enough to speak knowledgeably or accurately about it.
You’re welcome and don’t worry about it, I am still new at this and there is a lot I do not know.
Whoops, didn’t realize that someone else had already responded. I’m not Catholic, just studied it quite a bit.
Thanks, Monique for the clarification.
As I think about it, for me, hell is not a consideration in following God. I believe hell exists, but I wasn’t scared to Jesus with the threat of hell. To be honest I don’t think about hell much.
For me it’s that Jesus saved me from my own wretchedness (or as my husband so eloquently says “from my crapiness”) and restored me. And, yes, the focus should be what we’re saved to:
“…this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.” John 17:3
I think questions are good and should be asked, because if you aren’t challenged in what you believe or don’t know the reason why you believe what you do…then isn’t that a shallow, unsturdy faith? Theological debates will always be, but it’d be nice if the name calling (on both sides) would stop.
I applaud you for sharing your perspective in grace.
Ha! From my own crappiness! I like that – may have to use it as well! And I am in agreement with you – I love the discussion, I love the questions, it’s the heavy-handed opinions and name-calling and wall-building that can go far away. Thanks so much for your comment.
The #Robbell trend has me thinking about why I believe what I believe about hell, eternal separation, etc., and I am thankful for the opportunity to search the Scriptures and learn more.
In the meantime, I really appreciate your comment “I am very aware of the fact that I could be wrong on this one (after all, hundreds of years of church history tell me so) so my self-identification with annihilation is held loosely in my hand.”
There are so many beliefs in the Christian tradition that we need to examine, and know that there are {many?} things that we are just going to be wrong about… someone’s got to be, right?
Thank you.
It is nice in some ways because it gets the conversation out of the backroom and into the forefront, you’re right. I appreciate the conversation that is arising because I do believe that our understanding of hell and heaven and the cross, while a “nonessential” in some ways, is actually quite important because of what it says regarding what we believe about God’s character, nature, love and holiness. Enjoy the search and thanks so much for your comment, Heatherly (i love your name, by the way, so lyrical!).
sarah, though not exactly the same, your views are similar to C.S. Lewis’ in the Great Divorce. There was a hell, but it is defined as less and less color, solidness–one could logically conclude eventually ceasing to exist…
honestly, i know hell is real and Jesus talked about it. at the end of the day, what it means to meet this end, well, horrid–those who truly love Him and long for Home can imagine NOTHING worse than our deepest soul longings one day being forever face-to-face met. i don’t even want to think about it–so, that sounds indescribably awful–this separation from God.
after seeing good friends leave the faith through slippery slopes of less and less clarity about the person of Christ, the Scriptures themselves as revelation, and certainly what it is to live the Great Commission…i just lift my heart up and ask that however i view hell, or anything, let it only be in a way that makes Christ greater and more exalted in my life.
i sense this as your heart’s desire and just pray that you live Him with increasing clarity as you wrestle and walk this way…thank you for your courage to speak it here…
oops, i meant:
can imagine NOTHING worse than our deepest soul longings NOT one day being forever face-to-face met (in Him).
that’s what happens when you use double negatives;)
Thank you so much, Abby. I appreciate your prayers and your comment.
I agree that for many of us that grew up in church, when the gospel was presented–the emphasis was a “choose Jesus so you can escape hell”
But if we are really disciples of Jesus–that we need to think and look deeply at His words, very bold words, that indicate there is a place of eternal suffering. Jesus talks more about hell that anyone else in scripture (Matt 25:41,46, Lk 23-24; Matt. 5:22, 29-30; 10:28; 18:9; 23:15,33; Mark 9:43-47; Luke 12:6; 16:23). We can’t ignore these teachings.
We can’t if we call ourselvs His disciples. Explore the giants of church history (e.g., Augustine, Luther,) and see what mainstream Christians have believed through the centuries.
Remember, in John 6:53-59, When Jesus was telling the crowd, that we must eat of Him and drink of Him and in v 60 the crowd says “this is a hard teaching, who can accept it?”
After that point, many turned from Christ and stopped following Him. I know that it seems that a loving God wouldn’t really send anyone to hell. But fellow ladies, there is absolutely no scripture to indicate there is not one. The Bible talks about it repeatedly. I know its hard, but the truth of scripture is hard.
And yes, absolutely, live fully in Christ today. Don’t come to Him simply to get out of hell. Come to Him for Himself! He is all satisfying and full of the love we yearn for. Find in Jesus life, joy, and intimate fellowship. And drink deeply of Him and surrender yourself to Him. He indeed is life. I love how John Piper puts it “God is most glorified in us, when we are most satisfied in Him” He also says “Now for God to be just in condemning those who do not receive His love, does not contradict the fact that He’s love. It just means that He is more than love. If God were only love, that is, only merciful, there would be no hell. God is also just, and evidently, His being just also makes His love and mercy shine the more brightly.”
Have absolute freedom to wrestle with God on this..but trust that He would want to speak of hell if its a reality–a loving God would only do that.
Amy, I am so glad you included scripture verses here. “Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding.” Proverbs 3 v5.
Thank you for your comment, Amy. I don’t disagree that hell exists or that Jesus (and Paul and many other writers in the Bible) talks very clearly about it. I read and use those exact same scriptures, to be honest, and feel very justified in my opinions about annihilation. I’m going to try to take some time (in between the babies and the rest of life!) to write a bit more detail with scripture etc. about how I arrived at my position since it does seem that people are curious about it. As you said, it’s Scripture that we have to inform this discussion and I am happy to do so. I simply didn’t want to bog the discussion down into proof-texting when I was wanting to say, as you reiterated, that the “point” isn’t whether you believe in a literal eternal conscious punishment or, as I do, that hell is final destruction, but that life in Christ, to the glory of God, is good and real and eternal.
I don’t understand people who say, “What’s the point?” when one suggests there isn’t a hell.
I also don’t understand people who want to get rid of the concept of Hell…and so what if it IS fire and brimstone and gnashing of teeth? Worse than Dante’s Inferno? Doesn’t that make our salvation more precious? To be saved from not JUST our messy lives and our fears and our sins in this life, but in the next life also? I wonder why Jesus spoke about hell so often. he didn’t use soft words about it either, his words are where we get the idea of fire in the first place. How great the Father’s love for us, that we would NOT perish!
To cease to exist? That idea seems to diminish our worth as eternal beings, but maybe I’m not understanding what you are suggesting. I’ve seen eternal separation from God in the bible, but I haven’t heard of ceasing to exist.
There is a place for fearing the Lord. We are told to fear him in the bible.The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The decrees of the Lord are firm, and all of them are righteousness (Psalm 19).
All I know is that he is a great God, and even Hell can’t stop him from his love for us.
Thanks for your comment, Jo Ann. I don’t disagre with you, I simply read those same scriptures with the lens of the Old Testament and traditional Jewish teachings about whole personhood. That none should perish – EXACTLY! And as far as the “to cease to exist” idea, I suppose that it would depend on when you believe we are conferred eternal life. Is it at birth? Is it in Christ? I’m going to try to take some time today or tomorrow to write out a bit more of the theology behind my opinion on my own blog if you’re interested but ultimately, as you said, yes, the decrees of the Lord are firm and he is a great God.
I’ve been thinking about these things in this blogstorm. and blogging about this (see http://bramboniusinenglish.wordpress.com/2011/02/27/would-universal-reconciliation-make-the-gospel-worthless/). I’m not having any definitive answer, one moment I can go from annhihilation to Lewis’ hell locked on the inside to hope for restauration of all things.
I do know God wants none to perish.
And I do know repenting and becoming a Christian out of fear of hell is like marrying someone out of the fear of loneliness. Not a good idea if there’s no positive reason you want to share your life (or eternity!) together…
What we need is to pursue Christ, and the Life He brings!
shalom
Bram
Thanks, Bram. I appreciate your comment.
You have raised a really amazing discussion & thought. I always LOVE when Christians aren’t afraid to question the inerrant message of the Bible because it means they are solid in faith to open their hearts to questions & “what-ifs.” I’m not a religious theory person at all. I haven’t read Rob Bell’s book or much on it, to be honest. I’m also exhausted & reading this at the end of the work day, so I may be repeating things that I either a) missed in the original writing or b) have already been asked in comments. Forgive me if I do that!
But without Hell, where does that put Satan in the grand scheme of things? Not physically, of course. But without Hell, how does Satan fit into the story? The salvation? Is denying the existence of Hell denying the existence of Satan?
You ask “what is the point?” but without Hell, what was the point of Jesus dying on the cross? Giving us the gift of salvation? What is the point of defeating death on the cross? If it is simple separation from God, wouldn’t the simple belief in God & good works be enough for Heaven?
I do love the richness of life in Christ. I have never been a fan of fire & brimstone teachings & prefer the gentle love that God provides. & I am not a believer in an inerrant Bible. But I do wonder that if we start disbelieving in Hell, we begin questioning Satan. & therefore salvation.
Thanks, Beth Anne. I appreciate your comment (and the exhaustion! I’m wondering about the wisdom of responding or even writing this to begin with when I am 35 weeks pregnant! Ha!). I think you’ve hit on something very key here – our view on hell or the afterlife is directly linked to our beliefs about the Cross and the work that is done there. Death did need to be defeated. The gift of salvation still stands. Good works aren’t enough. I am in complete agreement. I’m going to take some time in the next day or two as life permits to write out a short blurb on the theology/scripture behind what I believe and why. Hopefully that will clear up a bit but yes, there is much we agree on – it’s what “punishment” and “perish” are truly that is up for debate.
I don’t believe in a literal, physical hell. Nor do I necessarily believe in a literal, physical heaven. I believe in a God who is so beyond my feeble comprehension and a Christ who loves more deeply than I will ever understand in this dimension of the universe. I also believe in a Spirit of wisdom, grace and truth. I’ve spent over ten years fighting fundamentalist demons and while doing so I realized I had been following Jesus who was saving me from God. But Jesus is a part of God. Right? You can imagine how messed up I’ve been over the years, spiritually. I completely understand Bell’s point in the video regarding this idea.
Who or what is Jesus saving us from? As someone pointed out on Facebook, the answer should be ourselves!
I think it’s beyond hubris to think we know what happens after we die. I also think it’s a grand lesson in missing the point. While we’re wiling away our precious, limited time worrying over our afterlife, how many people have gone naked, hungry, homeless, beaten, abused, imprisoned, ignored, left for dead? Did Jesus spend his missional years going around asking people, “Are you going to heaven when you die? What about me? Do you think I’m going to go to heaven? Do you think I’ve said the right prayer, believed the right things?” Nope. Seems to me, in large part, Jesus missional years were spent being a witness to the greatness of God by being a servant to the many. In doing so, Jesus turned the world on its head.
I also think we’re a bit prideful about our our belief that we absolutely understand each and every verse of the Bible; that there is a definitive answer to every question therein in disconcerting to me. Yes, there are verses mentioning a hell or references to what we have shorthanded as hell. But as many, many bloggers have pointed out, there are many, many different ways to understand those verses and to interpret the meanings of each word and the gist of each message. The conversation is important. It is upsetting to me that we can’t partake of a rational, calm, respectful dialogue about these religious questions without name calling (heretic) and creating yet more dividing lines. Rhetorical question: how many different sub-groups under the Christian umbrella? More importantly, what does that say about us as a group?
After walking away from that abusive notion that Jesus was saving me from God, I finally, slowly, started to understand the love of God through Jesus and it finally started to change me in the way I had always heard about but never experienced before. One day I woke up finding that I simply didn’t care whether I was going to heaven or hell. If God would send me to hell after showing Godself to me in the way of Christ, then so be it. Who am I to worry after God’s decisions? I either trust God or I don’t. And God is either Love or God is not. God is either all-powerful, all-loving and all-knowing, or God is not. My only role is to trust it and live in it.
What I worry about now is how to best work with is whatever moment I find myself in and the tools at my disposal in that moment. That’s it. And in that moment in which I find myself, I can be Christ’s love to others, serving and listening, attempting to be a part of ushering in the Kingdom or I can choose otherwise. At every moment’s turn I have that choice. To me, this means that at every moment’s turn I have the choice to be in heaven or in hell.
What I know is that people are watching this play out. I can only hope and pray that we who call ourselves Christ followers treat each other with dignity, compassion, grace and love.
Well said!
Thank you.
Well said, indeed! Thank you for sharing your story. I truly appreciate it.
Yes. Yes. Yes.
You stated everything in my heart far more eloquently than I could have.
Jude 5-7:
“Now I want to remind you, although you once fully knew it, that Jesus, who saved a people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed those who did not believe. And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day— just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire . . . But these people [false teachers] blaspheme all that they do not understand, and they are destroyed by all that they, like unreasoning animals, understand instinctively.”
I believe these verses from Jude speak so directly to this conversation — we must be so careful not to blaspheme because we don’t understand, or to rely on our emotional instincts when approaching the topic of God’s character.
Ultimately, Bell and those who agree with him attempt to make themselves out to be more compassionate and more good than God, who we are told in the Bible is perfectly good and perfectly loving.
I urge you to consider that despite your (and my) lack of understanding of God, true faith is believing that despite what we do not know, God remains good, unchanging, and faithful. My biggest faith struggle in the past 2 years, but also by God’s grace my largest area of spiritual growth, has been in honestly, faithfully believing that God is GOOD – to the point of thanking him for my most devastating trials because they are what is required to point me to Him. How are we to have any sort of faith if we don’t believe this? From that Spirit-gifted faith comes the blessed assurance of knowing that the way God ultimately deals with creation and sin is up to him and has nothing to do with a man or woman’s emotion-driven assumptions about his nature, particularly when they directly contradict what he has laid out for us in the Bible.
Also, here’s an interesting article by Kevin deYoung that I thought was a very poignant answer to the “judging the book by its cover” debate: http://thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/kevindeyoung/
Grace and peace.
Brynna, I agree that we don’t want to rely on our emotional instincts when it comes to Scripture or our understanding/conjectures about Scripture. I don’t believe that I or Rob Bell or anyone that thinks this way thinks we are “better” or more compassionate than God himself. Rather (and I can only speak for myself here) this has been how I have seen the total fullness of how good, how perfect, how just, how holy God truly is – and how far we all fall short! Thank God for the cross and redemption, for grace! I am convinced of God’s goodness but I don’t think that it is “true faith” to believe in line with this certain teaching or a certain doctrine about hell, simply believing it even though I don’t find it scripturally or intellectually or spiritually satisfying. That seems dishonest. Rather, my faith is fully invested in God and I do trust his leading and guiding. And Scripture informs that and leads that, certainly. But I believe – just as you do about your own position – that my position is justified scripturally (as do many in church history). Thanks for your comment and insights – I appreciate it. Thank you for the article, I’ll look forward to reading it.
Your last question : What if every story your life told about life in God (spoken and unspoken) had to communicate what you are saved to as opposed to saved from?” says it all. Our lives should be pointing people to the One that saved us not the future that none of us completely understand.
I think it makes the enemy quite happy to see twitter wars over theology that, if everyone was completely honest, NOBODY but God has the answer to.
Grace, people. Why can’t we just focus on grace?
I agree, Melissa. It’s always a bit embarrassing when we air our dirty laundry, our worst bits like our pride or arrogance or certainty for all to see. Restoration clearly wasn’t the focus and that’s sad.
Thank you so much for this post. I am personally a universalist. (I can’t believe I’m actually admitting that in a public place. *terrified* And for those unfamiliar with Christian Universalism, it does not necessarily mean that I am a pluralist or even that I don’t believe in hell.) But I can definitely sympathize with annihilation, I flirted with that idea for a while. I just can’t let go of the hope that everyone will eventually be reconciled to Christ. I have this picture in my mind of the last sinner finally accepting Christ and all of Creation, without even one soul missing, worshiping God together. I find this picture too hopeful, too beautiful, to not be from God.
P.S. I know I didn’t quote any Scripture in this comment, but rest assured I have studied this Biblically, and have a decent amount of Scriptural support to my beliefs. I just didn’t want to come off as preachy, or make my comment too long.
This paints a picture of love without threats and a God I could trust.
Thank you for sharing it.
That is a beautiful image, Becca. I’m glad you felt safe enough here to share that. it is a beautiful representation of God’s heart for humanity.
If I understood Scripture correctly (along with the Holy Spirit within me, speaking hourly, moment by moment, to my soul alone) the point is spending eternity with God. Seeing salvation from the negative (NOT going to hell) is missing the whole point of how awesome God is and how much I want to spend eternity with him.
That being said, I believe in hell. Mainly because the Bible teaches that Jesus descended into the “lake of fire” prior to his resurrection. And I completely eschew any Christian (including Piper) who damns another Christian, especially so prematurely. Sheep eating sheep. Who ever heard of carnivorous sheep???
does the bible teach that Jesus descended into the lake of fire? i know “he descended into hell” is in the apostles creed but it is not in the nicene creed, and as far as i know, the bible doesn’t actually say what happened between good friday and easter.
can anyone else who knows more weigh in on this?
The verse that the “descended into hell” of the Apostles Creed is taken from is 1 Peter 3:19-22. There is a lot of controversy and you can read various commentaries and come away with different answers. Hope that helps!
“made proclamation to the imprisoned spirits”, saving eight–now that is a curious bit of scripture!
come to think of it, ephesians 4 talks of Christ descending, too…
thanks genevieve.
I’ll take a whack at it later today or tomorrow. It likely won’t be satisfying for everyone but I can at least say what I think it means, if it helps or gets you started on figuring it out yourself.
Carniverous sheep! I like that! When I look at that scripture, it’s through the lens of how the teachings that Jesus grew up under (meaning for us, the Old Testament) understood the lake of fire or place of the dead. I’ll try to answer a bit of that later today or tomorrow. I hadn’t anticipated so many questions about how I read scripture or what I believe on it but I’ll do my best to answer it.
This line of questioning is what brought me out of Christianity and into searching, then universalism, then atheism. I was raised in the church and believed by habit, then it became a conscious choice in my teen years and I was a leader in our church. I never imagined I would leave it, but I could not reconcile questions like these. I traveled and saw Muslims much more devout and sincere in their faith than most evangelicals I knew… I saw people in third world countries living in such poverty that the very basic needs were not met, and how can these people give serious thought to philosophical things when they are trying to find clean water for their children? I reached a point where I refused to believe that these people were damned for eternity because they were born in the wrong place, to the wrong family. These people believed just as sincerely in their religion as I did mine, and were just as likely to convert to Christianity as I would have been to Islam, or Judaism, etc. It became so hard for me to see Christianity as not completely ethnocentric. “This is the ONLY way and if you don’t hear about it, or if you grew up believing something else, you are just screwed, sorry!” I also became disgusted with how easy it was for Christians to repeatedly sin because it was just their “sin nature” or their “struggle” or whatever. When you don’t have that view of God forgiving you and a shiny crown in heaven, when you believe that life on earth is all you have, you generally act a lot better. I know I do. Suddenly I don’t have these struggles anymore that I used to have. I’m accountable to myself, and it is my job to regulate my behavior. It is my job to make sure I don’t waste my precious time here. I’m totally rambling now so I’m sorry. I guess I needed an outlet for my thoughts and I identified with so much of this post and the comments. I’ve been there – both the questioning and the “Scripture is infallible” sides.
thank you for sharing your story. You aren’t alone in your observations and questions.
As someone who lives in Asia, in a country where less than 10% of the population has ever heard of our precious savior, this is something I struggle with regularly. I live in a restricted nation, where I can’t just go and tell everyone I meet about this amazing love. How I wish I could. The thought that this loving, graceful God, who blesses me on a daily basis, could send people who have never heard his name to an eternity of torment…it is too much for me. And if that’s the case, then what is the point? We’re never going to reach them all before they die.
I know this is an age-old conversation. I guess I just have a different perspective, not being in North America any longer. My pastor in America can tell me that everyone who hasn’t known Jesus is going to hell, but does he walk down the street everyday and look at thousands of faces of people who have never had a chance to know?
Your last paragraph just made me ache, Jennifer. There are a lot of things about our Gospel that do seem ethnocentric. Which makes you wonder, if it can’t be true everywhere, is it true at all? We add so much to the Bible, creating new laws. How is that good news, I agree. They are valid questions. Many prayers for you.
You know this is all fine and dandy and easily debatable. But what does the Bible say? You didn’t list one verse, it’s all opinion.
We can conjure all the theology and doctrine up in the world, but without a definitive truth to stand on, we are all opinionated and just really grasping at straws to piece together post life existence. The Bible is very clear that there is a hell. God does not send people there, our very nature does. We are born separated from God and there is nothing we can do about it. Read Romans 1-3 for a clear picture of the depravity of mankind. Christ doesn’t save us from a vengeful God, he provides our only way to God. The debate is not about heaven or hell, and our eternal residence. We get so caught up in the ‘materialistic’ aspect of heaven or hell that we miss the point. Hell is eternal separation from God. Heaven is being the presence of God for eternity. It’s not about fire and brimstone or streets of gold. It’s about a relationship with the Creator and the created worshipping the One who created them. Read and study Revelation for that aspect.
We fill our time with meaningless topics and debates about who is right or wrong and this and that, when we should be focusing on our relationship or lack of with Christ/God. And then in turn spreading that news to others. there are people in this world who don’t even have the opportunity to hear that a gospel of hope, of redemption exists and we sit here playing tennis whether Rob Bell (a finite man) is right or wrong on theology. Read the Bible for yourself, you are lucky enough to have it in your own language.
I just read this (on someone else’s blog so I’m not self promoting here), and I thought it was timely for this conversation http://dailycopingskills.blogspot.com/2011/03/question-of-rhinos.html
My dad recently work through some of this theology (and with him it means a LOT of in-depth study) He was absolutely shocked when I said that I feel the same. I couldn’t have an in depth theological discussion with anybody about it right now, but I’m not having many deep theological discussions about anything (think baby and toddler in the house….) so thank you for putting it in writing! It’s good to see people questioning why we believe what we do…and regardless of where people stand on this issue in specific I agree that the bigger picture should be on focussing on what we DO have. Jesus used Love as His message. I think we are called to do the same…which eliminates fear from our arsenal.
Thanks, Jenn. I love the picture of you and your Dad wrestling together with these things. It’s nice to have someone “in real life,” I know, as we question and research, pray and learn.
I thank God daily that it is not up to me (or anyone else on earth) to determine the eternal fate of anybody. And I am learning more and more about trusting in the goodness and love of God and leaning into the mystery of salvation, content NOT to know the answers to every question. (And there have been, and continue to be, many.) I am grateful for your boldness (and your humility) in putting your thoughts into this very public writing space – thank you. May we find the grace to live with one another’s differing opinions and allow God to have the final word. “If with all your heart you truly seek me, ye shall ever surely find me,” is the lyric of an old aria taken directly from the KJV version of Jeremiah’s prophecy. I cling fiercely to this truth, most particularly in answer to questions like Jennifer’s (who is in Asia). I am fairly certain that we will be surprised by many that we meet in heaven – and that’s a very good thing. Because, as Jesus makes so poignantly clear in so many ways, living the kingdom life while we are here on this planet, has far more to do with our actual living than it does with believing. Are we doers as well as hearers of the word? Do we see Jesus in ‘the least of these,’ and treat him well when we do? Is this not how we, as you so eloquently put it, tell the story of what we are saved TO? Thanks so much.
Very good to read your thoughts, Diana. Thank you. I gain great peace from those passages of scripture as well, for the same reason. Good stuff there!
What a powerful summation of my own process! I praise God for and applaud your courage in sharing this sweet message, that we can come to Him because we are saved To experience with Him.
Thanks, Joni! I appreciate that (especially since I did have a bit of fear and trembling during the process of writing it out – mainly because I didn’t want to get into a huge proof-texting war about hell).
My husband and I have been reading “A New Kind of Christianity” by Brian McLaren, and it has been so challenging to our doctrine and belief system. He really calls into question the way we interpret much of Scripture, as so often we neglect “bigger picture Story” and cultural factors of the Bible. The author talks about the power of Story and asks the question–
“If the world started as Perfect Eden/Perfect Unity, then there was a Fall out of perfection, then a Rescue/Redemption through Jesus, then Some people get back to Perfection (heaven) while some people burn forever, then the end of the Story is worse off than when it was started. Mclaren asks if that can be classified as a “good” story, in the first place?” (rough quote)
I guess I had never thought of that linear thought-process. I am still really wrestling with my own beliefs, but I love the freedom this site has taken to open the discussion. I know in the Christian world, that is risky. Proud of you guys for stepping in to turbulent waters.
And YES– always, always, what we are saved to, trumps everything else.
McLaren has played a big role in my faith, particularly with A New Kind of Christian. I haven’t read A New Kind of Christianity but I know how challenging and thought-provoking his words can be.
Yes, me, too, Hopeful! Always something to think about/talk about when you read McLaren!
Thanks so much, Laura. We’re all on a journey and who can trust the one that thinks they’ve arrived anyway, right?
I am also a big reader of McLaren’s over the years (not so much his more recent 2 or 3) and that series of “new Kind of Christian” are all excellent. Another favourite of his that I liked was co-written with Tony Campolo called “Adventures in Missing the Point.”
I agree that Christianity must be motivated by more than fear; it must be motivated by love for God. But I still think there is a hell. God is a loving and merciful God, but He is also a just God, and the Bible speaks of the place where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I’m curious to know, what texts convinced you of this?
Thanks, Heidi. I’m going to take some time today or tomorrow (as life permits!) to write out our process of how we arrived here. I didn’t want the article to turn into a big proof-text about hell (since my point was more around the idea that, no matter your beliefs on hell, life in Christ is rich etc.) but it seems that a lot of people are interested in knowing how we got there. I’ll post it on my own blog (www.emergingmummy.com) in the next few days. It likely won’t satisfy every question or even most of them but it’ll be a start. I will say that the same texts that people use for eternal conscious punihsment are almost always the exact same ones that I look at it for annihilation or conditional immortaltiy etc. It’s simply a different lens that we read through.
Thanks, Sarah! Also, I should say that I absolutely agree with some of the things you said. Life in Christ is so rich, and we need to preach that joy and love, too.
What an interesting perspective! Thank you for sharing your thoughts. This seems like positive reframing- we Christians gain eternity, while nonbelievers cease being and therefore do not know what they’re missing. Christianity should be about gaining, not losing. I’ve never agreed with scaring people into salvation. While I still believe that hell exists, I’m not sure that the theologians have a proper concept of it either. Then again, I am someone who is utterly comfortable with the mystery inherent in the Bible.
Me, too, HopefulLeigh. Mystery and faith go hand in hand. But I also wanted an answer for questions that were robust and satisfying, scripturally, doctrinally, intellectually. I feel like I’ve landed there for the same reasons you shared but, as I said, holding it loosely for sure. Because there is much mystery and God’s ways are not mine.
Hi, Hell had nothing to do with my reasons for finally embracing Christianity over other religions. Love had a lot to do with it. Resurrection also had a lot to do with it. And somewhere along the way I recognized the God of both as the God I had encountered.
As one Orthodox writer put it, “Who can love a torturer?” Certainly the version of Christian belief which has the Son saving some of us from the Father (by being tortured by God on our behalf) while the rest are tortured forever by God is not worth believing. Personally, I’m glad more people are beginning to see that truth.
With that said, I have pretty much the same issues with annihilationism as the ancient Church did. While there are many things that could be raised, there are two that strike me as the most important. The first is the image of a God of love whose love overflows in a creation. All creation is always contingent on God, but God begrudges none of his creation existence and sustains all and everything without reservation. A God who could withdraw himself from his creation and let it cease to exist would take us back to a capricious and changeable God. It’s true that when we turn our will against God, we ultimately seek non-existence, but it’s a non-existence we are powerless to achieve.
The second, and even more important reason it that such a view effectively nullifies the fundamental reason the Incarnation and the Resurrection were and are efficacious. The Son joined the divine nature to our common, shared human nature and by so doing redeemed us all from our captor, death. If humanity does not now share in the undying divine nature, then Jesus failed and we are all still slaves to death. Obviously I don’t believe that’s true.
God does not and will not treat any of us differently. All creation will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord with which it is already filled. It is no longer the nature of man to die and we will all live. Moreover, we will all live in the unveiled fire of the love of God. From God’s perspective, all that can be done without abrogating the essential freedom of his creation has been done.
And so the question falls to us. Except insofar as it helps us love God and one another or hinders us in the same, I’m not sure it makes a huge difference what we think we believe. How have we shaped ourselves? Do we love God? Will we experience God’s love as warmth and comfort? Or will we experience the love of a God we do not want and cannot escape as torment?
Even so, I join St. Gregory of Nyssa, St. Isaac the Syrian, and others in their incredulity that even the coldest and most twisted heart could remain unwarmed forever by God’s love. I fear it may be possible, but even from the small bit that I have experienced of God’s love, I find it hard to credit.
Thanks for such a deep and insightful comment, scott! Lots to chew on here. Your last paragraph in particular is so true – once you encounter even the smallest kernal of love, how do you remain unchanged?
Thanks for writing, Sarah! My husband’s Dad (a Preacher) had said something similar whenever he talked with the husband on Sunday about the Rob Bell drama, but it wasn’t until I read how you put it that I could really relate. And even if there is hell, the question you raise is still excellent: If we’re not Christians to escape Hell why are we Christians?
Thanks, Ashley! I appreciate that.
I agree that many Christians need to learn how to live in light of what we are saved TO rather than FROM. However, what has the author done with Revelation 20, among other passages? As others have also posted, I’m more than a little curious what “painstaking research and reading, prayer and spiritual wrestling…has occurred.” It’s one thing to make bold statements. But without giving any reasons or evidence for her conclusions, it’s really only so much drivel.
Hi Mag:
I’m sorry you felt that it was drivel. My purpose in writing the article wasn’t actually to defend my position or try to convince anyone else to abandon theirs. Rather, it was as you identified in your comment about life in Christ itself – regardless of your htoughts on hell.
I know that it’s a bold statement for some to hear but it is scripturally justified and commonly held by many within the Church and has been for centuries. So I’m not totally out in the wilderness on my own here.
Since there has been a lot of interest in how I got to my beliefs about hell, I’m going to take a bit of time over the next few days to write it out with scripture etc. I’m not a theologian and it may not be satisfying for many but it will at least give you a bit of the reasons and evidence for my conclusions so that you may look at it for yourself at least. (I’ll be posting it over at http://www.emergingmummy.com)
Thanks for your comment and questions.
Hmmm interesting thoughts. I’ve been watching the Tweets and some of the Facebook discussions and have thus far stayed out of them. I admit though, that this is something I haven’t really thought about this way before, and now that I am, I know that I need to spend a lot more time praying and studying and thinking about it. What have we been saved TO as opposed to being saved FROM…. Hmmm….
Thanks, Dawn. I usually don’t like to wade into these discussions either (talk about time consuming!) but I did feel like I wanted to refocus or reframe the discussion this way and I’m glad that it did that. And as I said to a few other commenters above, I would like to go back and edit the article to add the word “only” to that last sentence you quoted – we are, of course saved FROM but we are also saved TO much. It’s not an “either/or” situation in my mind, if that helps.
Oh, Sarah, I disagree completely.
Jesus doesn’t save us from a wrathful God, as you implied. He saves us from our sinful nature.
If you don’t believe in hell, then you must not believe in Satan. As it’s been said, the greatest trick the devil ever played was convincing people he didn’t exist.
Be oh so careful with this subject, Sarah. I know you have good intentions, but as another commenter said, teachers/writers/bloggers are held accountable for what they say. Just because it feels good doesn’t mean it’s right.
Hi Joy:
I appreciate your concern and heart for me. I think you may have misunderstood a few things that I wrote – I do believe in consequences of sin. It’s just that I don’t believe in eternal conscious punishment. And it’s actually not that much of an anomaly – a lot of people are quite convinced of this as well and I feel quite confident that it is justified scripturally.
And no, of course, I don’t think that Jesus saves us from a wrathful God – that’s my point. God is love, God is just, God is holy. But to me, eternal conscious punishment or the focus on a literal hell creates that image or idea. I do believe in Satan, if that makes you feel better.
Thanks, as always for weighing in. I hope that clarifies things a bit. I am going to take a bit of time over the next few days as life permits to try to show why I hold this belief about hell and the afterlife. Hopefully that will make a few of your concerns a bit less.
I’m reminded of the words of St. Isaac the Syrian.
“God’s recompense to sinners is that, instead of a just recompense, God rewards them with resurrection.”
If by ‘just’ we mean the sort of justice we mete out or experience from others, then I think rather we have to give thanks to God that he is not just.
Holy just means set apart, separate, the other. It’s just a way of describing the wholly other and uncreated nature of God.
God is love, that is his essence is love — which is, of course, what we see revealed fully in Jesus of Nazareth. In some ways, 1 Corinthian 13 could be a description of God. Even there, we have to say that God is not love in the same way that have loved or experienced love from other people. His love is far purer and unchanging than our love. But until we glimpse God’s love, I don’t think we understand God at all. I’m not sure it’s possible to know him apart from our experience of him as love.
At any rate, I find I want to sound words of caution anytime I read strong positive statements about God. Yes, but …
May I ask (politely, of course!) for those scripture references which support this idea? I admit I don’t know my bible inside and out, so I may have missed these. I think it would help your argument if you gave them here.
Wait, I see that you are going to address these in a separate post. Thank you
I look forward to seeing the link appear on twitter 
The part that stumps me is that if he is only saving us from our sinful nature, what of the fact that He created us as we are?
I really appreciate what you wrote…. while I too am no theologian, I struggle with these issues sometimes, especially when they are brought to me in such a thought provoking way! Chatting to my husband last night (who is a bit of a theologian- he went to bible college), we came to no clear cut answers. I cannot say, unequivocally, that either point of view is correct. I also, wonder if we truly grasp the ‘holiness’ of God. Just how righteous and magnificent he is. And I wonder if there HAS to be a bad that is so bad for how good he is- if that makes sense? My husband also mentioned an interesting thing that Jesus said about Judas, that ‘it would have been better for him if he had never been born.’ I also have a little trouble with the idea of souls just ceasing to exist. However I am not opposed to your view at all! I wish things could be more ‘cut and dried’ sometimes. But thank you for a lot for very interesting food for thought!
Oh Sarah! I love you so very much! This is actually something my husband, a few friends and I have been talking about and struggling with lately. My husband Keeps saying, “If God is just and loving how could He let people whom He loves suffer through that.” They’ve said if God is just and loving that maybe when you die and meet God and have judgment, that He would give you another chance to choose Him instead of going to hell. When listening and talking to them, I just couldn’t understand how they could think that if hell existed God wasn’t loving, (probably because of the church I grew up in, and blind faith I was taught as a child). However, I can’t rely on blind faith, and risk not investigating things for myself. I think your thought of annihilation and just ceasing to exist makes more sense to me than their theories. So thank you for sharing, and thank you for inspiring me to go a little deeper, like you always do!
I don’t like to argue theology…but don’t you think maybe we’re getting into semantics? I mean, separation from God is separation from God. If you’re just eliminated or if you are eternally punished, what’s the difference? Both sound horrible to me! I guess being eliminated is the lesser of 2 evils but…
I don’t think the “absence” of hell changes the view of God and salvation at all. It’s still salvation—from death, from sin, from un-life. Our life on earth here isn’t just better it’s MORE–abundant and free! I serve God for a huge basket of reasons, not just to save me from eternal damnation or elimination.
Thanks for such a thought-provoking post!
Agreed Amanda.
Also, I’m pretty sure it doesn’t matter what I believe about hell. Right? Isn’t it about what Jesus taught? I’m amazed that not one Scripture reference was given in the entire post. Here is a little of what Jesus taught on hell: http://tinyurl.com/49e8ezh
If we are followers of Christ, do we believe what He believes or not?
I can’t think of anyone who doesn’t balk at the idea of anyone being thrown into hell. But I can’t escape the numerous references to hell in the ministry of Jesus alone. I did a quick NIV/Pradis search while skimming these comments and I found 14 references. There is a sense in which the reality of hell is as hard to understand and comprehend as the love of God in Christ Jesus, but there it is in Scripture. Admittedly, to love God with all your mind in this is difficult, but I don’t see an exegetically sound way around the reality of eternal condemnation as a possibility for some.
For me, my initial salvation decision wasn’t based one escaping from hell, but on escaping the hell of my daily life… having hope in someone bigger than myself, someone I could trust in to guide me. It was never about hell. That being said, being eternally separated from God would be bad enough. Interesting the way things are turning lately, the discussions that are coming up and the things people are thinking about these days.
I saw this, http://www.orthodox-christianity.com/2011/03/why-we-need-hell/, and thought of this post.
I’m not Christian, per say. I’m Unitarian Universalist. I follow Jesus, his radical teachings of compassion. I don’t believe in hell, but I still follow his ideas because they are that powerful. Without getting into a lot of depth of my religious beliefs (which I already know would be met with great hostility here), it always seemed to me that those who would be Christian, or any faith, for the explicit purpose of avoiding hell, somehow missed the point of Jesus’ message of love. We’re in God’s kingdom. He created earth after all.
Your words make perfect sense to me. I’m glad you are brave enough to share them.
I haven’t read all of the comments, so forgive me if this is a repeat … You might consider Luke 16:19 – 31. Jesus tells the story of the rich man and Lazarus. The rich man has died and is in Hades. He looks up and sees Lazarus by Abraham’s side. He is in torment and agony and begs Abraham to let Lazarus dip his finger in water to cool his tongue, because he was in agony in the fire. Seems rather real and rather hell-ish to me. The rich man is still alive. He has not been annihilated. He is in hell.
This is true. But, then what do we do with Lazarus? How did he get into heaven? This is a sort of staggering question that someone addressed once, and I haven’t seen it explained properly! I take Jesus’ words very seriously as well. But, what is he trying to say, if anything, about the rules of heaven and hell?
Some say that Jesus had not payed the price yet so the point is null. But then why do we use it as proof of hell if the rules changed?